« His and Hers Portions? | Main | Why are there cookies on the front desk? »
January 1, 2007
Reply To Rudd Center Blog Article on CR
A commenter, Rebecca, pointed me to an entry on the Rudd Sound Bites Blog about Julian Dibbell's New York Magazine article. Thanks Rebecca! I'll re-post the entry, by Katherine Stevens, here, along with my response:
Starving Yourself for Eternity
by Katherine Stevens
I love New York magazine’s recent article on the Calorie Restriction diet. Makes me want to try Quorn, which if I understand correctly, is a slime mold that can taste like chicken. And who knew soy was linked with dementia? So glad I didn’t fall for the whole “tofu is good for you” ploy.
But the great thing about the article is that the author decided to try out the diet. He literally starves himself for his art and for us, his esteemed audience. The CR diet, which its followers seem to think will bring eternal life, involves eating just enough to avoid death by packing lots of nutrition into the least number of calories one can consume and not, well, die.
By following the CR diet, the author lost 20 pounds in two months. Way too much, according to the woman whose CR-structured meal is the pivot of the story. Losing weight too fast can be dangerous (remember that, Hollywood) and all that vanishing fat is accompanied by vanishing muscle and bone mass, including the heart muscle. While she feeds the author a second helping of the most unappetizing parfait I’ve ever heard of, the rest of the CR followers talk about what the diet means to their sex lives (ups women’s libidos and makes men monogamous, apparently) and to their lifestyles (includes them in the echelons of the righteous, long-lasting, healthier-than-thou few). As far as I can tell, none of these people have children, and they all are fairly well off. The conversation eventually veers towards immortality because this diet was originally started after an experiment that showed animals of all kinds live to the human equivalent of 160 years when they’re on the brink of starvation received a human trial among the 1991 Biosphere scientists. By accident, the scientists had just enough (nutritious) food to survive, and their post-Biosphere physicals seemed to verify the healthful aspects of eating so well, you barely have to eat at all.
This, of course, sounds a little creepy. First, there’s the euphoria that goes along with such a limited caloric intake, a chemical high described in the article that makes these painfully fit people sound positively giddy. Secondly, there’s the orange-hued skin of excess carotene consumption. Third, anyone who has ever experienced starvation in the way people who simply don’t have any food do would not cultivate that achy, frightened feeling for anything in the world because sixty extra years of life is still sixty extra years of that awful sensation. Finally, the sheer amount of attention to detail involved in CR indicates a hyper-obsession with control that may not be such a great thing
.
So is CR a good idea? Maybe. Our grandchildren will find out in eighty years when we’re dead and they’re still alive. Or not alive. Somebody pass the Quorn.
Hi Katherine,
First, let me say that I have enjoyed reading your work in the archives of the Rudd Center's blog. I especially liked your entry on so-called "healthy" school lunches. Right on!
However, I found the above entry disappointing. I'll comment on a few points with which I take issue:
First, you write:
The CR diet, which its followers seem to think will bring eternal life
This is incorrect. No one thinks that CR will bring eternal life. We think, based on years of scientific evidence, that CR slows the biological aging process in mammals. By how much and what mechanism, we're not sure.
Biomedical approaches to the reversal of aging are a topic of interest for us, but that's quite different from CR.
Second, you write:
Anyone who has ever experienced starvation in the way people who simply don’t have any food do would not cultivate that achy, frightened feeling for anything in the world because sixty extra years of life is still sixty extra years of that awful sensation.
No CR practitioner I know feels anything like this achy frightened feeling you describe. As we emphasize over and over again, most of us don't feel particularly hungry on a regular basis. We are hungry immediately before our meals, and most of us report enjoying our food more than we did pre-CR. But we certainly aren't suffering from hunger on a moment-to-moment basis. I credit the super high nutrition in our diets for this: when you give your body what it really needs, it doesn't crave the excess calories that fill up but don't nourish most Americans.
As you correctly pointed out, Julian Dibbell cut his calories too low (in spite of warnings to the contrary) leading to unsafe quick weight loss. If he had eaten a more appropriate number of calories, he probably wouldn't have experienced much hunger either.
You describe the dessert I served at the NY Mag dinner party as:
the most unappetizing parfait I’ve ever heard of
I find this a bit odd. The parfait consisted of organic strawberries, nonfat ricotta, flax oil, and hazelnuts. Perhaps strawberries aren't to your taste... no problem! I'll make you blueberries when you come to eat with us, because you are most warmly invited to dinner at our house next time you have occasion to visit Philadelphia! But on the blog of an organization dedidcated to healthy eating, it seems incongruous to dismiss a low calorie, high calcium, vitamin C packed dessert consisting of fresh, in season fruits, nonfat dairy, and an excellent source of essential fatty acids. Isn't this just how we should all be eating? I find that desserts don't have to be loaded with fat and sugar to taste great, and that using nonfat dairy for calcium and getting my fat from unsaturated fat sources makes both for excellent food and lower cholesterol.
Third, you write:
As far as I can tell, none of these people have children, and they all are fairly well off.
As a union organizer, I am very sensitive to the class implications of most everything. One of my favorite things about Food Fight by Rudd Center director Dr. Kelly Brownell is the immense attention he pays to the difficulties of poor and working class Americans. I find that my food budget is actually less now than it was before I started CR because while I still enjoy the occasional meal out at one of our fabulous Philly restaurants, I eat out much less, and I never grab fast food takeout. By packing my food for work (often both lunch and dinner, as I work a whole lot of 12 and 16 hour days) and enjoying homecooked meals with my partner, I save a whole lot of money. By favoring organic and local produce, I support organic farmers with the dollars I could have been wasting on fast food. Overall, my lifestyle leaves a smaller imprint on the planet than did my pre-CR eating habits. While learning about nutrition took an initial investment of time, I find that now I spend no more time cooking than any other, non-CR'd woman I know who cooks for herself and her family. In fact, I often put dinner for two on the table faster than I could have driven to a drive-thru!
As a union organizer, I definitely make a lot less money than most of our classmates (I see you were Yale 2005 - I graduated in 1996, and have been helping workers organize to improve their working conditions and standard of living, and in the case of the nurses with whom I currently work, to improve patient safety, ever since.) Having my student loans finally paid off (which took ten years... I am not from a well-off family, and I went to Yale on a shoestring of financial aid, student loans, working many, many hours in the JE dining hall and as a computing assistant, and money that my parents, who believe in education more than anything, saved at great personal sacrifice to give me the wonderful opportunity of four years at Yale) sure does help, but I assure you, you will find our lifestyle much more modest than you seem to have originally assumed.
You go on to say,
the sheer amount of attention to detail involved in CR indicates a hyper-obsession with control that may not be such a great thing
This is simply not the case. In the food environment in which we live where most of what is marketed as "food" is actually packaged sugar and saturated fat in a fancy box, it is difficult enough to get the nutrition one needs while consuming a large number of calories. If you want to lower your calories to levels that have a chance of slowing biological aging, while maintaining optimal or even adequate nutrition, you must carefully monitor your nutrients. To fail to do so would be irresponsible and dangerous.
CR is not about control, it's about slowing our biological aging process with the only intervention that has ever done that successfully in mammals. We use tools such as nutritional software (free in many places, including http://www.nutritiondata.com or the best program ever, CRON-O-Meter) to make sure we're giving our bodies what we need. This is no more of an obession with control than is a professional baker's insistence on properly measured flour, sugar and baking soda to make sure that her cake doesn't fall in the oven. No one calls it pathological when a cook measures out her ingredients to get a recipe right... why do you assume there's something wrong with us because we measure our ingredients to make sure we're getting proper nutrition?
Anyone, regardless of interest in CR, could benefit from a quick nutritional analysis of his or her diet. Most people are missing a few key nutrients on a regular basis, and women especially tend to get too little calcium. Nutritional software is a useful tool, and if you check out my blog, you'll find that it can be even more fun than a video game! :)
You also write that our CR'd lifestyle:
includes them in the echelons of the righteous, long-lasting, healthier-than-thou few
I find this both incorrect and counterproductive.
We choose a way of eating that we believe, based on years of scientific evidence, has a good chance of slowing our biological aging process, and that we know, based both on current research (see the work of Dr. Luigi Fontana at Washington University St. Louis) and our own blood tests (which we monitor on a regular basis) improves our health and lowers our risk of disease in the immediate and long term. This is not about being good, righteous, holier-than-thou, or in any way unpleasant to those who make different choices. To be sure, we are healthier than most people, but to characterize that is "healthier-than-thou" (which, I'm sure not by accident, sounds exactly like "holier than thou") adds a level of moral judgement that I find unproductive.
I have blogged extensively about how I find it unhelpful to think of food in moral terms. I don't think that people are morally deficient because they're overweight (I was overweight myself before I started CR, and I can guarantee you, I was no more morally deficient then than I am now!) and I don't think that people are morally righteous because they've figured out a way to make healthier food choices. In our obesogenic food environment, it takes lots of information, support, and the proper tools to beat the food industry marketing and get or stay healthy. It's hard, to be sure, and that's why I'm targeting my activism at improving the food environment (can you tell I'm a recent reader of Food Fight?) In the meantime, I'm making the choices that I believe, based on my own research, are right for my own health and my long term goals.
In just the same way that it is unhelpful to describe overweight or obese people as unworthy, lazy, stupid, or morally deficient, I believe that it is equally counterproductive to characterize those who make healthy food choices as self-righteous or holier-than-thou. Aren't we trying to encourage everyone to eat better? I certainly don't try to pressure anyone into trying CR... it's an unusual lifestyle, for people with unusual priorities and goals. Much like a gymnast training for the Olympics or a runner training for the Boston marathon, we make choices that others would find unappealing. That's okay! I don't want to run a marathon, so I don't spend hours training for one. I can't imagine wanting to run all the time... heck, I refuse to run unless a large animal is chasing me! But I don't assume that marathon runners think they're better than I am or are self-righteous because they make different choices from mine.
Please do not make assumptions about our character based on our food choices. I trust that you wouldn't do that about an obese person, and I hope you would apply the same reasoning to us, even if you don't share our choices or our goals. When you come to see us (which you really must, we'd have so much to talk about between food issues and Yale memories!) you'll find that we're nice, fun people who love our lives, our food, our work, our two cats, and each other. I'm sure that as soon as we meet you, we'll love you too!
If we are to conquer the obesity epidemic that is robbing the majority of our citizens of their health, we need to develop attitudes towards food that don't involve moral judgement. People have enough trouble when trying to make healthy choices in our distinctly unhealthful food environment without worrying that those around them will accuse them of being self-righteous and holier-than-thou. If we want to encourage healthy eating, we need to cultivate an attitude of support. Our choices may be different from yours, and our long term health goals may be different, but I believe we want the same thing: a healthier food environment in which all Americans, rich, poor and in between, have access to food choices that allow them to be just as healthy and happy as they want to be.
Sincerely yours,
April Smith
PS I see that you're working on a Masters in Fine Arts in New York... good luck! And have a very happy new year!
Posted by april at January 1, 2007 5:48 AM
Comments
Wonderful response April! "Kill" 'em with kindness and facts .. perfect!
Posted by: heather at January 1, 2007 10:34 AM
Bravo!
Posted by: Gina at January 1, 2007 10:47 AM
Hi April,
I started reading your blog after the New York Magazine Article. I must admit I became a little obsessed with it the first night, as CR was nothing I had heard of before. I, personally, do not think that I would want to switch to a CR diet (I simply do not have enough will power and am a VERY picky eater). That being said, however, I have grown to really enjoy reading your blog, as you seem to be an extremely focused, dedicated individual - in all aspects of your life (that you write about.) You go girl! I also appreciate your logical, kind approach to criticism. Very admirable. Just wanted to wish you a happy new year and keep up the good work!
Posted by: bw at January 1, 2007 2:26 PM
April -
You said it so much more beautifully than I ever could have!!!!!
Thank you for your wonderful blog and your commitment to education. It's wonderful.
Posted by: Rebecca at January 1, 2007 6:55 PM
April, I posted a comment to the thread you restarted on Rudd's blog. Separately, I wonder what you think of short-term fasting as a means of elevating mood?
Posted by: Noah at January 1, 2007 7:31 PM
April-
Assuming I was to go on this diet, what is a good starting point calorie-wise for a 17-year-old girl (5'8, 150) and how do I deal with family that can be classified as an irish, meat-and-potatoes family?
I also have another question: What, exactely, IS the goal of this diet?
Sincerely yours,
Kate
Posted by: Kate at January 2, 2007 9:23 AM
Hi Noah,
I responded to you over there at Sound Bites.
I find that now that I am at a low weight, I don't enjoy fasting. I eat three meals a day most days, sometimes with a snack as well. I used to fast occasionally, but haven't done so in the last year and half to two years that I can recall.
Exercise is also a great mood elevator.
a
Posted by: April at January 2, 2007 9:33 AM
Hi Kate!
Since you're seventeen, you need to wait several years before you start restricting calories. It's extremely important to your brain development that you eat enough, especially enough healthy fats (like nuts, flax oil and olive oil). If you start reducing calories too young, you risk your long term health... you don't want to end up brain damaged because you didn't eat enough! The thing to do now would be to focus on your nutrition. Make sure that you eat tons of fruits and veggies, especially fresh ones. Also, calcium is extremely important for your bones. Nonfat dairy sources, preferably organic, are a good way to get calcium without saturated fat. A cup of yogurt, some cottage cheese, a glass of skim milk... all great ways to take care of your bones! Be sure to consume nuts or oils (flax or olive) to get enough fat. Also, take care to get lots of protein. Eggwhites, lean meats like turkey and some fish, and dairy are good ways to get the protein you need.
If you decide, after you're 21, that you're interested in Calorie Restriction to slow down your biological aging, you'll be ahead of the game because you'll already be eating the kinds of foods we base our diets on. But in the meantime, focus on nutrition.
april
Posted by: April at January 2, 2007 9:40 AM
Hey! Great post, as always!! Sort of off the subject, but not too far....I just had my first Savory Mega Muffin today for lunch...and I have to say..IT WAS DELICIOUS!!! These people that think nutrition = no taste are crazy! I really enjoyed it. I also enjoyed watching my Vitamins and Minerals for the day sky rocket in the Cron-o-meter!! A deffinite addition to my daily routine. Thanks so much for being a pioneer and sharing all this great info!
I just have a quick question though....is there a such thing as too many vitamins?
Posted by: carolyn at January 2, 2007 11:30 AM
Hi April,
Just catching up on my reading and as usual I'm finding your posts to be so energizing and encouraging. It was tough (and perhaps a little crazy) to begin CR right before the holidays. I def. had some challenging days and a few bad choices, but boy does it ever feel good to start the New Year off in better shape than I started off last year!
Thank you again for all that you do, say and write!
Happy New Year to you.
P.S. I put Food Fight on my request list at the library. Can't wait to read it!
Posted by: Deborah at January 2, 2007 12:12 PM
Wow. WOW.
It's really an eye opener to see how out and out NASTY she was about CRON. It must really strike a nerve somewhere deep within her...
April, you are a Champ! I would never have been able to respond in such a gracious manner.
Mary
Posted by: Mary at January 2, 2007 1:22 PM
Yet another truly fabulous post, April! I won't reiterate what others have said but will just leave you with an old saying (the source of which I can't seem to find: "People first mock what they don't understand".
Also, perhaps young Kate should give The Zone a try. Following its basic concepts provides great nutrition regardless of one's age, lots to eat and slow, steady, healthy weight loss.
Blog on! JD :-)
Posted by: Judith at January 2, 2007 2:36 PM
i tried very low calorye VLC diet myself on and off. i lost weight very slowly
i still have doubts that this diet will extend my life because i don't live i a lab
Posted by: nick at January 2, 2007 3:20 PM
"I find that now that I am at a low weight, I don't enjoy fasting."
Lucky for you. Whatever your weight, you do not fast to control it. Whether it is for longevity, beauty, or popularity, an extreme diet approach rarely leaves you where you intend to go.
Posted by: Noah at January 2, 2007 11:33 PM
Noah,
Once again, I am confused by your comment. You may choose to characterize CR as extreme, but again, that's your value judgement, not a statement of fact. I, for one, am exactly where I intend to be. The path that I followed (and continue to follow... life is an ever-evolving process!) may be different from what others would choose or enjoy, but it works for me. Or maybe you're describing fasting as extreme. I can't tell from the way the comment is phrased.
And you're right, I'm very, very lucky to have found the tools, information and support to make lifestyle changes that have been beneficial for me. In our obesogenic food environment, it's hard for people to be healthy. That's why I was so impressed with Brownell and Horgen's analysis of how the environment can be changed to support healthier choices.
a
Posted by: April at January 3, 2007 7:47 AM
Hi April,
As always, I really enjoyed reading this post. I wanted to introduce myself - I've commented on your blog a couple times before, but I actually started CR last week, and I wanted to say hi. Your blog is the main reason I took the plunge to start CR, and I couldn't be happier about it. I'm 22 years old (done growing, I would think), and I had a decent diet before - I eat piles of veggies every day, flax seeds every morning - but it's clearly so much better now. And I already have more energy and feel more positive about life - depression has been a struggle, on and off, for a number of years.
CR is going really well, I'm meeting most of the RDAs every day (and hitting 80% in the ones I miss), and I'm averaging 1200 calories, but I am accumulating quite a lot of questions, too. Any ideas as of where to go for answers? Are there CR-forums anywhere?
And I just wanted to thank you for writing this blog, because I enjoy reading it and I've learned so much from it, making my transition into CR quite painless. I think I might start a blog myself at some point.
-Emily
Posted by: Emily at January 3, 2007 10:32 AM
just wanted to add - I know 1200 will eventually be too low for me, and when I get hungrier, I will eat more - it's just the extra fat on my body that's letting me eat this low for now. And I am getting 80-100g of protein and 40-55g of good fat per day, even at 1200 calories.
Oh, and I'm 5'5" and about 135 pounds. I have a really narrow frame, and I think my "ideal" bodyweight is around 120. I have no idea what weight I'll end up on CR.
Posted by: emily at January 3, 2007 11:08 AM
"You may choose to characterize CR as extreme..."
According to mainstream health recommendations, CR practitioners undereat to the extreme.
According to the New York magazine article referenced in Ms. Steven's Rudd blog, you sometimes eat 1000 calories per day to compensate for meals out and drinking with friends. That is an extreme of its own, separate from CR, right?
"Or maybe you're describing fasting as extreme."
Yes, fasting is an extreme means, in itself, to change your mood. Easier means exist, including exercise.
"That's why I was so impressed with Brownell and Horgen's analysis of how the environment can be changed to support healthier choices."
OK, but the plan you follow seems to work in our current food and exercise environment. Why?
Posted by: Noah at January 3, 2007 1:02 PM
Noah,
Re: my calorie intake, let me remind you that I am an under 5'2" female. My average calorie intake is between 1300 - 1350. So if I go out for one restaurant meal, even a meal that would look small to most people (appetizer salad, grilled scallop dish with veggies, splitting a dessert with a friend, two glasses of wine) I am still adding a whole lot of calories to what I would eat in a normal day. So I sometimes go 100 - 300 cals lower than my average on the day before and/or after to compensate. These days, I do that much more rarely, as I prefer the consistency of 1200 - 1300 on a regular basis. The NY mag interview was seven months ago, and my CR practice has evolved a bit. Even then, I was eating out only about one meal a week. However, I still enjoy going out from time to time, maybe once or twice a month. I don't quite see why you have a problem with that. CR works just fine with averages. Over time, many of us find it easier and more comfortable to be consistent. That's why some of us choose to eat out rarely or never, since restaurant food is almost always much higher cal and lower in nutrition than what we would have on a regular basis. But the occasional meal out isn't going to throw off either my calories for the week or my nutrition as long as I'm vigilant with other meals. Since it's easy for me to go a bit lower the day after I've eaten out (the body seems to get used to a calorie level and stay there, so if I eat a bigger meal than usual, I'm not as hungry the next day) it's not a problem. Going out for a friend's birthday or the office Christmas party isn't going to wreck my CR.
My current lifestyle works in spite of the obesogenic food environment for a few reasons:
1. I found the information to create for myself a diet that I find enjoyable and satisfying that also hits the RDAs every day. See my post "My Fad Diet" for more info on this. I ignored the fad diets and instead focused on sound nutritional information. If you read the early archives of my blog, you'll follow the very long and entertaining process, including lots of misadventures (like putting vanilla whey powder into broccoli soup) that my current diet evolved out of.
2. It took a lot of research to get to that point, but I did the research, and incorporated what I learned into my life. If I hadn't had the resources to get the info (like a computer with internet access, access to libraries and the money to buy a few books, a car with which to get to a decent grocery store, and the ability to read and understand scientific information, thanks to my education) I wouldn't have been able to do it.
3. I work very hard at not giving into social pressure to do things I know aren't right for me. Sometimes I fail, but I get better all the time.
4. I have learned to ignore most food industry marketing. I don't own a television, I don't shop in the processed food aisles of the grocery store, and I don't eat at fast food restaurants (except when I'm stuck there for work, at which point I usually don't eat at all, preferring to eat my megamuffin instead. The staff never seems to notice or care.)
5. I have always loved healthy food, like fruits and veggies. I was raised by a mango-eating fruit freak, and going to the salad bar was always a big treat. So my tastes go well with a healthy diet. By the time you've eaten enough healthy food, you don't have much room for unhealthy food.
6. I learned how many calories things have. Pre-CR, I ate bagels with cream cheese for breakfast every morning. If their calorie count had been posted on the menu, I probably wouldn't have. Once I got interested in CR and started educating myself about the calorie content of the foods I ate, my choices became clear. That's why I'm very much in favor of nutrition education and calorie labeling.
7. I am extremely motivated to live longer and to feel healthier in the meantime. I get such postiive reinforcement from my current lifestyle that I can't imagine why I would want to go back. I feel much better on every level now than I did then.
I think we should change the environment to give people more healthy choices. In most restaurants, there's nothing I would eat on a more than once a month basis. If the menus were filled with healthy choices and labeled with calorie information (and some nutrition info too, like fat, protein, sat fat, etc.) then more people could make better choices. Initiatives to get fresh fruit and vegetables into low income areas are a great idea too. Real nutrition education in schools would help.
I'm also very interested in marketing healthy food. If we were constantly confronted with pictures of glorious blueberries and raspberries instead of pictures of hamburgers and fries, would we eat the blueberries? I think we might. I know I once developped quite a thing for blueberries after reading just one magazine article about them. Suggestion is powerful, but right now, almost all the suggestion is to eat unhealthy foods. It would be great if there were some positive suggestions out there too.
Something I have been wondering... the tone of your messages (both here and at the Rudd Center blog article re: CR) sounds very negative, as though you are angry about something. Is there something about the fact that I practice CR that upsets you? Do you believe that the world would be a better place if I did not practice CR (even though I am happier this way, am not trying to impose my decisions on you, and have never met you?) I am genuinely curious. I'd like to better understand why this is. Often people's tone and intention are obscurred in online communication, so if I have misunderstood you, please clarify.
a
Posted by: April at January 3, 2007 1:58 PM
Hi, April.
You wrote,
"Something I have been wondering... the tone of your messages (both here and at the Rudd Center blog article re: CR) sounds very negative, as though you are angry..."
Oh! No, eat and drink and exercise however you like, April. However, if you want to advertise dieting, drinking, calorie counting, and CR for the sake of longevity, I can offer you a critical, thoughtful response.
If you do not welcome my posts to your blog, let me know, and I will not post here.
Take care,
Noah
Posted by: Noah at January 3, 2007 5:39 PM
Noah, don't go away... I love your comments! I am just wondering if there is something about CR that bothers you. As I said, online commuincation often lacks the layers of in person communication, leading to misunderstanding. If I'm not understanding, please clarify.
thanks!
:)
a
Posted by: April at January 3, 2007 6:02 PM
"I am just wondering if there is something about CR..."
April, I am not sure that you in particular actually practice CR.
Can you do me a favor, April? Provide a link or two for CR research on-line. Aside from a little poking around mprize, and my reading of the New York magazine about you and other CR practitioners, I am not familiar with CR.
"If I'm not understanding, please clarify."
April, my interest is not in your diet per se, but in the CR diet that you advertise through your blog. I want to get a handle on what it really is, with your diet being the model for it. Obviously, other people practice CR differently. Should I look to them or to you or either to understand CR, that is my question.
So thank you for your generous help. It is appreciated.
-Noah
ps: other people than you might have put vanilla protein powder in a vegetable soup, once upon a time.
Posted by: Noah at January 3, 2007 6:39 PM
Noah,
A good place to start on your research is The Calorie Restriction Society, at http://www.calorierestriction.org
There you will find references to books by Walford, Delaney, and others.
Hope that helps!
And since CR means a reduction in calories below what would maintain one's set point, or normal weight, I practice about 15 percent CR. I am in the process of (gradually) going lower. We shall see if this yields long term health benefits. I suspect it will (obviously, as I am doing it!) but I'll keep all the readers posted on the short term effects.
Be well!
a
Posted by: april at January 3, 2007 6:42 PM
Hi, April.
"And since CR means a reduction in calories below what would maintain one's set point, or normal weight, I practice about 15 percent CR."
So it is just that simple, huh? Maybe I ought to skip the research. I think I already know what I will conclude.
Bye.
Posted by: Noah at January 3, 2007 10:32 PM
You're right Noah, that is an oversimplification. See my entry "Obesity Avoidance vs. CR" for more thoughts on the definitions of CR, and how much may or may not extend life. If you do decide to do some research on the CR Society website, you'll see that there's a long thread in the archives debating the value of determining percent CR, and if we even can make such a determination. The concept of set point itself is far from perfect.
Of course it's up to you what you choose to spend your time researching, but I think that with your interest in food and nutrition and science, you would find it an interesting topic to explore further.
Either way, you're always welcome here!
a
Posted by: April at January 4, 2007 3:26 AM
Hi Emily!
Thanks for the kind words! Great to hear that you're doing well on your RDAs. Are there particular nutrients you find you have trouble getting? I did a lot of digging to find them, so I might be able to help.
Meanwhile, the CR Society is working on a forum type of thingy, but the volunteers are so swamped that it's not done. I'm hoping to make a forum like thing when I get my new site set up... which I really need to get done soon!
Take care, and keep us posted!
a
Posted by: April at January 4, 2007 4:36 AM
Hi April, thanks for the kind words.
I just started a blog - www.cron-emily.blogspot.com if you want to check it out. I think I wrote it there, but I'm having trouble finding a source of vitamin D other than mushrooms - know of any good ones? Also, vitamin E is hard - I eat almonds, sunflower seeds, and collard greens, but I haven't found any other good sources.
thanks again!
Posted by: Emily at January 4, 2007 9:07 AM
MR has now convinced me that it doesn't make sense to estimate percentage of CR based on a "control twin" of normal BMI. It's a tough concept since unlike lab rats, there are so many differences in our genetics and environmental factors that affect our supposed set points. It's hard to know what to compare ourselves to.
Any reduction in calories (while maintaining adequate nutrition) seems to improve health, and at higher levels of reduction, longevity. That's based on the animal evidence. What, if anything, we choose to do with that information is a very individual decision. I think most of us who practice CR find that our knowledge and understanding evolve as more information becomes available. That's the fun thing about the CR Society list... the most recent medical studies get posted, and we all discuss them and decide if we want to take any action based on the findings. I encourage everyone to subscribe or check it out from time to time. You can do so at http://www.calorierestriction.org.
a
Posted by: April at January 4, 2007 9:12 AM
I am troubled by the exchanges with "Noah."
Not because he seems not to approve of CR (because as you have said, there are scientifically-based reasons to debate CR) but because of statements like:
"Maybe I ought to skip the research. I think I already know what I will conclude,"
and
"Aside from a little poking around mprize, and my reading of the New York magazine about you and other CR practitioners, I am not familiar with CR."
I prefer to become familiar with topics before I speak about them. "Noah" as much as stated he didn't know anything about CR, but makes assertions like "According to mainstream health recommendations [which he doesn't cite], CR practitioners [as if they are a monolithic community of robots] undereat to the extreme [unqualified]."
He goes on: "....you sometimes eat 1000 calories per day to compensate for meals out and drinking with friends. That is an extreme of its own, separate from CR, right?"
No, it isn't extreme, it's called balance. Most rational people spend less money after a binge of excessive spending (for example, during the holidays), so the budget stays relatively stable.
It's not extreme, but fully rational to treat our food needs in terms of a budget. It's so easy to label CR as extreme, but isn't eating too much extreme as well? It seems there are many, MANY more people practicing an "extreme" diet in the US than CR folks, if obesity figures are to be believed.
He goes on: "Yes, fasting is an extreme means, in itself, to change your mood. Easier means exist, including exercise."
But in this discussion, fasting is a straw man. So what if people choose to fast? That has nothing whatever to do with CR, so why are we debating this straw man?
Let's stick with CR in general, and not get bogged down in debates about individuals who may or may not fast, or engage in other "extreme" practices. As I alluded to above, people who practice CR are NOT a monolithic community. That's something I picked up on in the first day of my exposure to CR.
Finally, April is very generous with Noah. If this were my blog, I'd probably already have stopped posting his replies, not to silence him, but to stay focused and on topic.
His statement "maybe I ought to skip the research" tells me that he isn't really interested in learning, but rather, in making a point. How else should such a statement be parsed?
And if that's true, then he should get his own blog, and we should spend our time and effort debating the pros and cons of CR with people who are genuinely inquisitive and don't have an axe to grind.
Posted by: Chris at January 7, 2007 2:54 PM
Hi, April.
To let you know, I probably will not practice CR. Thank you, though, for your helpful pointer to the CRON society website, and your further information on CR and set-point theory. The website provides useful references if I decide to learn more about CRON.
All the best,
-Noah
Posted by: Noah at January 8, 2007 3:11 AM
Hi Noah,
Glad you found the CR Society website helpful!
For anyone else looking for a broad range of info on CR, it's http://www.calorierestriction.org.
You can also just google Calorie Restriction Society and it should come right up.
a
Posted by: April at January 8, 2007 8:35 AM