April's CR Diary

Slate would rather pander to the 210 million overweight and obese Americans than the thousand or so doing CR. Especially via a "recovered" anoretic, as eager as a crackhead fresh out of Betty Ford ready to tell the world how dangerous the two-joint coffee break is. Also, the chick's got a book to flog.

Money talks..hate to say it..time for us to publish a magazine!?!??! How about articles to every major publication? Why not?

It's interesting the last article she links to as evidence that CR is viewed to prolong life actually has scientific evidence for BOTH sides of the argument yet she has none. I recommend that last nytimes article for how both argument should be fought. She's just a poor writer.

It's so strange how people feel the need to project their own issues with food onto other people.

Sorry this is happening again, April.
Don't let it get you down.

R

Argh! *head-desk*

Although you've posted links, I'm afraid that I've stopped reading this rubbish.
May I humbly suggest you do too.
Ignoring negative articles about CR by stupid ingnorant people can only lead to less stress, and may therefore radically extend your lifespan :-)

I have just begun researching CR for my own good health. It seems to be a very common sense (a calorie is a calorie) healthy way of eating. I am not sure how someone could view it otherwise, unless they have not read any books on the subject.
It is interesting that in Allure magazine's recent issue a trainer's advice is to consume 1200 calories a day to lose weight. Is that telling someone to have an eating disorder?

Do we have any psychologists, psychiatrists or even anthropologists among our ranks? Someone who could put this to bed in a proper academic-style fashion? Do we organise the resistance, or do we turn the other cheek?

Great article. CR is an eating disorder, but beyond that, it points up some very disturbing delusions on mortality and denial.

Do you really want to live in a state of semi-starvation all the time? What is the point of adding years to your life (maybe - just hope you don't get hit by a bus or killed by a Yenta in an SUV on a cellphone) while killing the life in your years?

Oh, and April: if you're such a CR devotee, how come you still look as plumply average as most Americans? Your hubby looks like an AIDS patient, but you look pretty well fed. What gives?

April, I love your blog, but as commenters have pointed out on other CR sites, you and MR are trying to have it both ways. You represent your lifestyle as out of the mainstream, then cry foul when people criticize you for being out of the mainstream.

You should be glad that people are taking CR seriously enough to criticize it, rather than just ridiculing you, as happened to "hippies" and vegetarians forty years ago.

As Mary Robinson has stated on her blog, CR is actually not all that different from what people do on Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig or even just all by themselves. *Lots* of people eat less and improve their nutrition to compensate for the lost calories.

What differentiates hardcore CRONies, then? It's mental factors--the devotion, the enthusiasm, the change in *how* they find pleasure from food (DQ out, kale in), the desire to extend their lifespan, the goal that "perfect" rather than good nutrition is necessary and desirable.

And *that* is where the criticism is coming from.

I have yet to see a CR practitioner be truly self-critical about that issue. On every CR blog that I have read, CR practitioners have simply denied, rather than addressed, comments that they seem overly focused on health or calorie control.

Tamara: "Dumpy"??? Not skeletal, okay, but April hardly looks dumpy. In case you missed the giant, IN BOLD, so simple a fricking child could understand it point, CR is about your health not your weight. As for the "life in your years" statement - when your man is impotent from cardiovascular disease at 50, come back and defend the Standard American Diet, 'kay?

Now begone you unpleasant little troll.

Brooke, as a sympathetic outsider, I wish CR practitioners would stop saying "CR is about health" as if that was an answer to people's objections.

CR people talk ends, critics talk means, and they keep missing each other.

CR people seem to think that as long as what they're doing is for "health," then it can't be wrong. It can't be mistaken, it can't be excessive, it can't be obsessive, it can't be overly rigid, it can't be delusional, and it can't have a down-side (or not any serious ones).

CR people's extreme confidence that they know what's healthy, and that the more vigorously they pursue it, the better, *is* what's red-flagging the outsiders.

Yet, as a defense of these critics, the CR people say that they know what's healthy and they're pursuing it as vigorously as they can!

Argh.

April;

She doesn't know any better, her perception is distorted and she cannot look at it from our perspective because of her eating disorder history. She probably feels like she understands us and trying to 'save us', think but she clearly fails to understand and probably never will. She doesn't know how CR cannot be an eating disorder.

I think I agree with lindsays comment.

and to Tamara;

A thing that isn't getting across is that this has nothing at all to do with weight. It usually depends on where you actually start off your CR intitially... In experiments those mice that tend to have more fat when CR'd are the ones that live longer than ones that have less. Ob/Ob mice (genetically obese mice) are put on CR and they still are quite fat, but they significantly outlive lean exercised rats with normal caloric intake.

Understand that MR says he wants to weigh more, 50 lbs more, he said this in a Discovery Ca interview. There are many men in the CRS that want to weight more, but this doesn't extend lifespan, its not proven science.

If there was a well proven way to extend life, as just as much as CR that didn't involve being such a low weight then i'd do that... unfortunately there isn't.

IMO Michael looks healthy and young for his age. Michael and other CRers will prove this within time, when their friends and people in general the same age are looking decades older.

Its simple

Anorexia - leads to early death
CR - leads to longer life

There lies what is most important

and by the way... many CRers do not actually 'starve' all day. I am no more hungry now than when I was eating ad lib. In fact, by the end of the day I find my self having to add more calories because i'm too low. I might feel a little hunger just before I eat but thats about it.

Tamara, I assume you're not a physician? and not exposed to seeing aids patients or cancer paitents every day... believe me, there is plenty of difference and CRers look far healthier. There are more signs of health that just looking at how skinny one is.

Wow!! What a battle. April, you're beautiful and you know it. Tamara, you are unusually cruel and need to step away. It's one thing to argue through some facts and opinions, but to call names and act like a foolish child is another. All you are really doing is making yourself look bad, not April or any other readers or commenters.

Thanks to Brooke and Yvonne as well!

CR is about many things (not just health), but what people do with their bodies is for them to choose. Whether you are referring to sex, diet, choice of religious beliefs or lack there of...whatever.

I think one of the main things we must all remember is there is a lack of scientific evidence either way. No one side has truly been able to definitively prove or disprove anything here (in humans at least). So relax. If we want to experiment let us. It's not as if we are promoting bad health or trying to convert sinners.

Everyone needs to chill. Now, we all have jobs and other responsibilies, right?

Yvonne: Argh yourself. Would you call what a high-performance athlete does "wrong"? Yet it's by far more excessive, obsessive, rigid and so on, not to mention carries far higher health risks, than what just about any CR practitioner does. To me a lifestyle that most of the people who follow it enjoy doing, with results they enjoy getting, is not just harmless, it's beneficial. Criticising CR for its adherence to (what I would consider pretty minimal) rules makes about as much sense as getting on the back of, oh I don't know, Weight Watchers, or people who have a "skin care regime".

Can't speak for everyone, but personally, I DO follow CR for the health. I'm naturally thin but have a genetic predisposition to heart disease that has killed thin, active people in my family at the ages of 30 and 42. Also, I have had pharmaceutical treatment that has exacerbated this effect. Obsessed? You betcha. The thought of your cousin and your grandfather in a casket and the families left behind will sort of do that. I'm not going to apologise for my obsession. Do I gloat, or feel superior to other people? Nope. I got stuck with a band hand and would love to live out a normal lifespan.

I'll tell you where the extreme confidence that this is the right thing comes from, though: watching my triglycerides in freefall. Seeing my LDLs get down to an even plausibly normal number. Having a blood pressure that no longer makes my GP worry about me. The abnormally high amounts of exercise I used to take did nothing for any of these. By contrast, I'm concerned about the extreme confidence demonstrated by people who are not so unlucky as me, that they will always have their health. To me the attacks on CR could really only be written by young, healthy people, ones who just haven't had a real health scare yet.

Good Lord! Nastiness abounds in the blogosphere. Tamara, April is not "plump", by any stretch of the imagination! She is, in fact, very slim and slender. She is 5'2", weighs 102 lbs and wears size 2 clothing. This is "plumply average"? Is it the simple fact that despite eating nothing but healthy food, she has breasts and a curvy shape that has your knickers in a knot? Grow up. As for Michael, he does NOT resemble an AIDS patient. Like his grandparents, he is naturally thin (and always has been). Yes, he is now thinner.

As for this total crap that they live in a state of semi-starvation, that really is nonsense. They both eat a LOT of food, particularly Michael. What they do NOT eat is "gak" -- food laden with saturated fats and sugars. Their food is plentiful, beautiful and delicious. They are both part of a scientific study involving extensive testing of biomarkers and they score very highly on all of them. In addition, they never get sick. If the world is lucky, they will live a lot longer and be a great deal healthier in their old than 99% of the North American population. Now go have a Big Mac & large fries and keep up your health insurance premiums, 'cause you'll need it. JD

God, Tamara, even most of the girls claiming to be anorexic in this day and age of pro-ana online self-flagellation can't claim a BMI of 18.8 - are you a scout for Rock N Republic or something? If you're looking for someone in a state of semi-starvation, maybe it should give you pause over your textual diarrhea when you find they DON'T LOOK LIKE THEY'RE IN A STATE OF SEMI-STARVATION!

Yvonne, no one says using nutritional software is average. Topping off a 3,700 calorie, nutritionally void day with a midnight run to Taco Bell ("Home of the Fourthmeal" TM) is average. What chaps their hides is when people call weighing tomatoes and tilapia a disorder - while balancing your checkbook is responsible. Should we really be beating ourselves up for the fact that, nutritionally, we don't spend more than we make, and that we look for bargains in B12 and protein like most people look for them in Ruffles?

You find me one person who says all that is about perfection, and I'll bake you your own batch of megamuffins and deliver them by bell-adorned purebreed cat.

Frankly, if those who practice CR are due for some self-examination, then the whole of America better call off work for the rest of the freaking year to schedule some time on the therapist's couch.

Brooke...

I have the same thing in my family, quite a few members on my mothers side getting all sorts of autoimmune problems, dying and having heart attacks in their 30's and 40's and 50's. Quite a few making it to 85 years but still... better be safe and protect myself rather than be dead or diseased and on medication for the rest of my life.

P.S. Yeah, April, you should be glad people are just calling you fat and your boyfriend an AIDS patient instead of actually ridiculing you! GOSH! You're so ungrateful!

Yvonne,

I think you've gotten to the very heart of the matter: Is it possible to become so fixated on health and long life that one forgets to live in the here and now?

My answer: Yes, of course. It's always possible to get too much of a good thing. Even kale.

If we begin with the premise that CRON is healthy for the body (and just to be clear, not all critics *are* convinced CRON is healthy for the body, which is part of the reason CRONies keep reiterating the evidence that it is), then we're left with the question of whether it's healthy for the mind.

I submit there's really no easy answer to that question for the same reason there can be no spokesperson who truly represents the entire CRON community. For some people, CRON is entirely beneficial; for others, it may feed certain obsessive behaviors that are not mentally healthy. It depends on the individual.

Of course, one could spend every waking moment of every day thinking about food and calories and health. Obviously, if you do that, you have a problem because there's a lot more to life than these things. What's the point of living longer if you only use that extra time doing things to try to live even longer?

It's entirely possible that some CRONies are like this. But CRON doesn't *require* that you behave in this way. April isn't like this. I'm not. I don't think Mary is. But is it possible? Yes.

It's also possible to become obsessed with almost any activity under the sun. Sports, tv, reading - these are all fine hobbies. But it's possible to go too far with any of them. Would you say there's something inherently bad about exercise simply because some people tend to overdo it or even become obsessed with it? No, of course not.

For my part, I can only say that yes, I *do* spend more time thinking about food and calories than I did before I started CRON. (Of course, before I started CRON, I didn't think about what I was eating at all). But I don't spend *all* or even *most* of my time thinking about those things. So I don't see CRON having negative effects on my own mental health.

However, I can't speak for everyone.

R

Judith, RE: "advising" Tamara to keep up her insurance premiums (I agree with you: her comment about April's weight Was dumb), well, that is not very nice, either, Or very accurate. Why?

Because Plenty of people watch what they eat without sitting around all day watching TV and sucking in Big Macs. That's mighty simplistic thinking.

You insist: "They both eat a LOT of food, particularly Michael."

How it is that a grown man can eat "alot" of food and weigh in at 115 while being 6 ft. tall?

His BMI is only 15.6!

Either his metabolism is unnaturally and insanely fast or he has done CR too excessively.

"What's the point of living longer if you only use that extra time doing things to try to live even longer?"

To live longer still? As an agnostic/athiest type I only have one chance to get it right, to achieve escape velocity as Aubrey De Grey calls it. By not doing CR this lowers my probability of reaching a time when biomedical science has come up with answers to aging.

Without reaching this point I probably wont ever live out my dream... to explore all places on earth, to explore the galaxy, the universe even! To learn if life exists anywher else. Answers I want which I don't think I have a good chance of doing or finding out about with the natural human lifespan.

Live long enough to live forever -- with CR.

Julie said

"His BMI is only 15.6!
Either his metabolism is unnaturally and insanely fast or he has done CR too excessively."

He started off at a low BMI, as did I (I started with a natural ad lib BMI of 18.5!) and some other CRONies did. But so what if his BMI is so low? He is healthy, and has been doing CR for almost 10 years! He apparently rarely EVER gets sick, and has really good health markers. I don't see the actual problem here.

15.6 doesn't say much really, its not an indicator of michaels health.

Julie, Judith is MR's mom. Wake up and smell the egg whites.

Hey - Fellow CRONie (90% of the time) who usually just lurks. The article happened to make it to slashfood (one of my fav food blogs) and I for fun commented with a daily diet comparison. Normally its the one thing that makes me friends say, "ooooh i see why its healthy." The example I used:

To illustrate here is an example of a daily diet for an anorexic:
1 apple
2 cups coffee with sweet and low
10 jellybeans
1 piece of toast, spray butter
1 orange
Total Calories: 244 and less than 20% vitamins and minerals

And an example daily diet for a calorie restrictor (my day today):
Breakfast: 1 cup Oatmeal, strawberries, blackberries
Lunch: Large salad with corn, peppers, low fat cheese, tomatoes, onions, salsa, avocado, shrimp, chopped egg. tomato soup on the side.
Snack: banana, plain nonfat yogurt
Dinner: Burrito made with whole wheat tortilla, spinach, zuchini, carrots, peppers, corn, low fat sour cream, black beans, and a little enchilada sauce.
Calories: 1100 and close to 100% reccomended vitamins and minerals.

April,

I'm sorry you have to deal with these unfounded personal attacks, from both commenters and in poorly researched CR articles, especially right now when you're so busy with your work. If it helps, please know that because of your blog I learned about CR and have been practicing for about 6 months, and my health has vastly improved. And since I now know how to prepare healthy meals for my non-CR family, their health has improved too. I'm sure you have many more readers out there like me, so if the negative press gets you down, just think of us. Thank you for putting yourself out there through this blog and the media interviews.

Julie, I guess my crack about the Big Mac was out of line but I just became so frustrated with this entire uproar that I lost what little diplomacy I possess.

Now, as to how Michael can eat "a lot" on only 1930 calories+/-, I'll tell you what I know about and observed him eat during is 10-day Christmas visit. (And yes, I am his mother, BTW.)

To begin with, he consumes a very large breakfast, somewhere in the 600 calorie range, I believe. He prepares a humongous salad consisting of various greens, tomatoes and other veggies, piled 4" high on an oversized dinner plate. (I think he dresses it with flax oil & vinegar.) With the salad, he has a large serving of Keffir (similar to yogurt) flavoured with a bit of coffee, some berries and hazelnuts, and half of an orange.

His lunch is frequently a very large vegetarian stew, often made with lentils & various beans. If memory serves me, he also has a MegaMuffin with that. A big thermos of green tea is never far from his elbow.

Dinner is usually very close to 640 calories and consists of something like a vegetarian Lasagne or CR'd Pizza or one of April's amazingly creative meals such as was featured on CNN last week. (The serving of Lasagne Michael packs away is more than my husband can finish at one sitting, BTW, and he is a pretty big guy who does not have a sedentary job.) Occasionally, April will make something with shrimp or scallops. For example, one of her "specials" that we make quite often (because is so incredibly delicious) has (for one person) 200 gms of shrimp, 100 grams of cubed mangoes, 100 grams of coloured bell peppers, 100 grams of asparagus, stir-fried lightly, then finished with a generous portion of salsa and a little flax oil. This dish is served at their house with 100 grams of Brussels sprouts. With that, Michael will have a small handful of hazelnuts and a glass of wine. He also eats CR'd desserts: crustless pumpkin pie or ricotta berry cheesecake are regulars. Occasionally, berries get drizzled with chocolate sauce & hazelnut oil.

Now you tell ME that isn't a LOT of food! Low calorie, low fat, healthy, nutrient-dense food. Nutritious deliciousness.

Matt,

If you're busy exploring all the places on earth, in the galaxy and in the universe, you cannot possibly be spending every waking moment obsessing about calories and food. There just aren't enough hours in the day.

My point is that it's possible to practice CRON without the all-consuming effort that outsiders seem to think is necessary to do it. All CRONies aren't sitting around all day incessantly thinking about what they're eating or not eating. Some may do that, but my impression is that most have hopes and dreams and lots of relationships and activities in their lives that have nothing whatsoever to do with food or health.

R

"Now you tell ME that isn't a LOT of food! Low calorie, low fat, healthy, nutrient-dense food. Nutritious deliciousness."

It Does sound like a Lot of food (and great food, at that), but common sense tells me that a fully grown man at 6ft tall with the skeletal weight of 115 (I think many professional models would envy him) is just not eating enough.

I know that many people doing CR seem to be very angry and frustrated with those who question and even challenge their lifestyle, yet clearly not enough is understood about CR by the general public, for one thing.

Another problem is that if Michael Is healthy, he does not Look healthy and that does matter to "outsiders".

Many people with his type of weight (for his height) have eating problems/disorders or a disease like cancer.

If those who practice CR want others outside of the fold to understand their lifestyle (and there is now enough publicity surrounding CR that comes from the practitioners themselves to imply as much), then they are going to have to seriously address what they consider to be misperceptions and ignorance on the part of the general public without becoming overly defensive, hostile or victimized.

I'm sure it can't be easy, but if CR really Does have implications for All of us in terms of improved health and wellness (and maybe even longer life) then we need to ask hard questions and even express severe doubts without people on CR shutting down or calling us names, themselves.

Think about it:
To the average outsider, your lifestyle is very crazy in many ways, even in this society which so glamourizes thinness.

Do you want us, the outsiders, to understand? Or do you not care if we do? Which is it? I feel that you guys are giving very mixed messages (although I know it can be hard to be under fire).

Hey Julie,

Before CR, eating all the pizza, nachos and oatmeal with whole milk he could, MR was 145 pounds. He's a skinny dude. Before CR, eating what most people would consider a "healthy" diet, rarely eating desserts, eating three "square" meals a day, even as a lowfat vegan, I could rarely get below 120. At my highest I weighed between 137 and 140 at just under 5'2". Now I weigh between 102 - 106 based on the time of month, exercise, etc. A lot of where you end up depends on where you start. I think someone else mentioned the experiments with the mice who are bread to be obese, but on CR live even longer than the naturally normal weight, even though on CR they are the same weight as a "normal" mouse, normally fed.

"Common sense tells me that he's not eating enough." Enough for what? For your taste? Or to be healthy? We have objective measures of health, and by those he is extremely healthy. We have subjective measures of how he feels, and by those he feels great, never gets sick, and is very happy. So then it comes to taste. My guess is that you would consider him too skinny for your aesthetic preferences. That's fine! But that's taste, not science.

I addressed at length why I personally do these media appearances here:
http://www.mprize.org/blogs/archives/2006/12/cause_were_all.html

I can't speak for others.

I am very grateful to those who put themselves out there as models of how human CR practice is possible because they helped me find out about the only intervention proven to slow aging in every mammal in which it's been tested. Their example, support and information helped me adapt a lifestyle that has dramatically increased my quality of life by every available measure. As I said in the CNN interview, for me there is no downside. For others, there are downsides. They've shared them.

I don't seek approval or understanding from the general public... but I do dislike being attacked, labeled, and even threatened. Ideally, I would like those who find the information useful to use it as they will, and those who aren't interested in CR to leave us alone. I know that's unlikely to happen: food and weight are such hot button issues that we can count on providing lots of work for freelance "journalists." It's an easy cheap shot: weird people who eat less food, and weird food! Skinny people who aren't models! Happy people who don't stuff themselves with crap!" So I expect the negative attention, but I'm still dismayed by it, especially by the irrationality of it. So much of the critic's critique of CR is that it makes people miserable -- yet almost universally, people who actually practice CR will tell you that we're happier than we've ever been. It's frustrating when people don't seem to hear what you're saying. As my old friend the North Carolina truck driver used to say, "It's like talking to a barking dog."

There's reasonable, respectful questioning and disagreement, but then there's labeling, absolute refusal to research the scientific evidence, and outright hostility and threats. I treat questions and disagreement quite cheerfully, at length, and have for nearly three years now on the blog. I have also been quite kind, I believe, even to those whose articles or comments have been much less than respectful. Heck, I invited Rebecca Traister to dinner! But there does come a point where people are clearly not interested in finding out information... they're interested in bashing. And I don't think you can blame us for being angry when that happens.

a

"http://www.mprize.org/blogs/archives/2006/12/cause_were"

Unfortunately, the link you have provided did not work for me; could you give another one?

"My guess is that you would consider him too skinny for your aesthetic preferences. That's fine! But that's taste, not science."

Well, it's not just taste, it's also my (and by extension, many people's, I feel) associations of extreme thinness with cancer, concentration camps and the like. People do not necessarily mean to have those associations, but they do. My father became quite emaciated before he died of lung cancer. I know, rationally speaking, that his thinness was from cancer not the CR you folks are doing, but when I see someone as thin as MR it is inevitable that these connections to death and disease will arise for many.

"So much of the critic's critique of CR is that it makes people miserable..."

Well, I have heard of some who practice CR who do sound rather miserable. People here paint a glowing picture of their lives on CR and there is no automatic reason to disbelieve them, but that is not the only view I have read.

(Maybe if people who practice CR did not give such uniformly glowing reviews of it. It comes across as almost being brain-washed to someone non-CR).

"And I don't think you can blame us for being angry when that happens."

I do not necessarily blame you, but I do wonder if it's counter-productive to helping people understand CR in a more complete way.

For myself, I think Katy Taylor brought up some good points in a way that was not overly aggressive. Do you dislike everything she said in those articles on Slate?

Anyway, thanky ou for reading these comments and if you can provide another link, I'd appreciate it.

Hi Julie,

Again, you're stating that people have unpleasant associations with being very thin. That may be, but that has nothing to do with the health of people responsibly practicing CR. That's perceptions, not science. Not biomarkers of health.

Again, we are not trying to win a popularity contest, we are trying to slow down our biological aging process. If that triggers negative emotions in some, so be it. We can't control that.

Also, if some of us seem too "glowing" in our perceptions of how we feel on CR, I must again say that's not our problem. Would you prefer us to lie about how we feel, so that it might be more palatable to you or others? We are clear about our experience, and we are also clear that our experiences are our own first person narrative, and may not be representative of all who follow a similar path.

Do you really think we were happier when we were eating more? What would make you think that? It doesn't make a ton of sense... more calories = more happiness? think about it for a minute. Overeating causes so very many negative health effects, and undereating with adequate nutrition has, in every mammal in which it has been tested, led to extension of youthful healthy life. Isn't there something a bit odd about a culture where pleasure is equated with consumption of calories, to excess? Where 65% of the population is overweight or obese? Sure, in that environment, people who chose to eat less, and to pay more attention to nutrition, will seem odd. Freakish even. But if that doesn't interfere with our lives, why should it be a concern for others?

Frankly, I doubt Miss Taylor's sincerity. She strikes me as the kind of person who will do anything to sell her books and her articles. If she had a sincere interest in the topic of CR, she would have quoted some of the many CR society posts in which people said, "Al Pater, eat more! Al is not doing CR, he's anorexic!" There have even been many calls to shun Al from the CR Society, as he is clearly not practicing CR. He is a very sad person with a tragic life story. She has exploited his pain for her own personal gain, and frankly, I find that disgusting. I'd be interested in what points of hers you find credible. And who, specifically, do you think practices CR and is therefore miserable?

In the end, we must all take responsibility for our decisions. One thing about CR people that is unusual is that we take a large amount of responsibility for our own health. We don't blame the environment, our work, our families, or our genetics for our health. We take advantage of the information available to us and make our decisions accordingly, in line with our own priorities. That's quite unusual, and a lot of people don't like it. But just like saving for retirement or buying a house with a 20 year mortgage instead of a 30 year one, it's a responsible decision that requires some planning ahead.

If you don't find CR appealing, then by all means, don't practice it! That's your choice, and you're responsible for your own health decisions. We don't want to change you... but for those who are interested in slowing their aging process, some of us want to provide information on how to do that, and support for what is (thanks to people like Katy Taylor) a hard journey. Most folks on CR will tell you that hunger is not a problem -- reactions of others are much more difficult to deal with. I am blessed that my circle of close friends and colleagues are totally comfortable with my CR practice, but i admit that I hang out with almost freakishly mature and successful people. Others have huge struggles, and I try to support them so they can make the decisions that they believe are right for their own health.

To each their own.

a

April,
thank you for the link; I will read it carefully as I am now very curious about CR and what it means both to those on the outside, like myself, who perceive it in certain ways, and those on the inside who practice and live it each day.

When I mentioned my perceptions based on a very thin appearance, I wasn't trying to say that such views are completely valid from a strictly rational and scientific point of view.

(Although it stands to reason, at least to some degree, that if extreme thinness accompanies such diseases such as cancer and AIDS then it can be an indicator of poor health, which is probably confusing to many trying to understand CR).

I guess I am trying to explain for myself why people might have such intense reactions to CR. This interests me a great deal, just as it interests me to note the intense and often extremely hurtful and biased and unpleasant reactions people have toward those who are fat.

I think many if not most people do Not advocate overeating or gaining a ton of weight in this culture, for instance, even the majority who do Not do CR. I also think CR would be viewed by many as an extremely healthy way to eat were it not for how extremely limited the overall caloric intake must be.

The irony is that Both overeating and undereating is very much looked askance in this culture; I guess to what degree depends on what side of the fence you are on.

I must admit: I am curious as to whether or not you feel hunger? Or is hunger something that goes away after doing CR for a certain length of time. And if so - is this good? Or is this the body/mind adapting to actual starvation in the best way it can?

And do you see Any links at all between CR and anorexia in terms of how the body experiences very limited caloric intake?

(I find it alarming that people losing weight on CR lose muscle - including muscle of the heart - and bone loss, just as those who are Anorexic do).

Is there a way to practice CR without these dire consequences to heart, muscle and bone?

You ask what Katy Taylor said that makes sense to me? Well, she did seem to have a good point when she noted how, when she was anoretic, low metabolism was seen as "very bad" by her doctors, but for those who do CR it appears that is is "very good" to have low metabolism. How can this be?

Maybe this is quite tedious to try to explain (yet again, I've no doubt) to a newcomer and outsider, so do not feel I think you must. These are just some of my questions about CR at the moment.

It might turn out that CR is definately something which will not only expand life but also improve it in humans as well as animals. (I guess the evidence is not completely there yet, hence the study).

I know that those who do CR are not content to wait and that they believe strongly in their improved health.

I admire such ability even as I fear it, personally speaking. If I skip a meal (espeically breakfast) I feel ill all day. I also am a person who loves to feel full after a meal (without feeling stuffed).

Maybe those successfully doing CR are already starting out stronger than the average human being; I don't know.

Thanks for reading this, I know it's quite long (and for the link).

April!! Why did you wait so long to address the Al Pater issue? The fact that the CR society has called for him to be banned should be one of the *first* things you said, not something buried in the comments. If Kate Taylor represented Al Pater as a CR practitioner without mentioning that the CR Society has apparently carried on a public discussion on its forums about banning him, that is a *huge* point, and that is the *first* thing you should have said in your rebuttal.

Right now, my main CR question is, How do you find the line between good thinness and excessive thinness? It seems like that's the key. Restricting calories solves some major health problems--but, if taken too far, it will expose you to other, equally serious health problems such as osteoporosis and heart failure.

That's why it seems to me like CR people are potentially playing with fire. Do you *really* know that negative consequences aren't building up slowly because of your extreme-low-end-of-normal weight?

My partner, for example, is obese. Are you sitting down? His BMI's in the fifties. Yeah, you read that right. Yet up until I was stupid and ill-informed enough to urge him to do Atkins, during which his blood pressure soared to the skies and required medication, he was perfectly healthy. Low overall cholesterol, high "good," low "bad," healthy triglycerides, the works. Blood test after blood test, workup after workup, nada. Even post-Atkins-disaster, hypertension remains his only health issue, and it's being controlled by medication, which puts him essentially back where he started.

Yet there is not a doctor or informed human being on earth who would say to him, "All right then! Have another Big Mac!" (Not that he eats Big Macs. He actually hates fast food.)

What they tell him is, "You've been incredibly lucky so far that you're not sick yet."

Given the fact that low body weight *is* associated with health risks, I would urge you to consider the possibility that although you and MR are incredibly healthy *now,* that may not actually mean anything. My husband, right now, is as healthy as you are.

I would urge you to consider the possibility that you are healthy *in spite of* your CR practice rather than because of it, just as my partner is healthy *in spite of* his morbid obesity.

CR people use nutrition to allow themselves to get away with something that they acknowledge would otherwise be destructive (reducing calories sharply). Doesn't that worry you? Doesn't it make you wonder, occasionally, if maybe you're only *postponing* low-body-weight-associated health problems rather than eliminating them entirely?

I would trust CR more if its members were more self-questioning and self-critical about these issues.

Yvonne,

Your comment is unfortunately uninformed. Low body weight is not a *risk factor* for disease (except for osteoperosis, which is why we are very serious about our calcium, vitamin D, bone building exercise, and bone building supplements... also, quite a few doctors who do research on CR think that while our bones are lighter, they are also stronger.) Low body weight is often *correlated* with disease. You're confusing causation and correlation.

We have the studies of Luigi Fontana on real live CR practitioners of all ages who are doing incredibly well on all biomarkers of health, better than runners, raw food vegans, and a control group of "normal" eaters. These make a pretty strong case that my current health is no accident, and is likely to remain good. Our very own Mary Robinson has been one of Luigi's subjects.

On the CR Society list we have been through about a million rounds of discussion on every point you make. We question ourselves all the time... but we've already thought of the stuff you're saying, researched it, and dismissed quite a few possibilities as unlikely. We are extra careful about bone health because being lighter is a geniune risk factor for fracture. That's why I am so adamant about my Pilates: the core strength and balance I build now will help me avoid fracture later, in addition to the calcium, vitamin D, bone building supplements, high impact exercise and weight lifting I do.

Lower calories are not destructive, unless you are an anorexic who is starving yourself. Lower calories in every mammal in which it has been tested lead to longer life, and not just longer life at the end of life but an extension of youthful healthy life. Anorexics are not doing calorie restriction... they are manifesting a serious psychological disorder that should be treated. We're not using nutrition to get away with something... we're getting adequate nutrition because that improves the health and lifespan of calorie restricted animals in laboratory experiments, and because the effects of good nutrition in humans are also well-documented.

Before CR, I was not nearly as healthy as I am now. I lived in my body, I saw the signs of aging and ill health, and I decided to make a change for the better. I did about seven months of intense research on the topic (it helped that I wasn't dating much at the time! freed up time to read medical studies...) and made responsible, informed decisions. It's not that we don't question... in fact, I am constantly tweaking my CR practice here and there to improve my nutrition and maximize my health. Note the changes I made to accomodate exercise. It's just that we've already answered most of the questions you're raising, and if you had done a good search of the CR Society archives you'd see that for yourself. We don't rely on "common sense" or taste or what is "normal," we look at the available scientific evidence.

I don't mean to sound dismissive of your comments and questions... I do welcome your thoughts and I enjoy corresponding with you. I can tell you're quite earnest in your concern and curiosity. But I have answered so many of these questions so many times that I sometimes get frustrated. So please forgive me if I am a bit short... I am also slammed with work and tired. But I do want to answer you and others who might have similar questions or concerns, so I try to write anyway!

And you're right, I should have mentioned Al earlier. I wrote my entry after Miss Taylor's first post, not her second, in which Al was mentioned.

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You're right, and I'm sorry. I did not check the CR Society list. I've been idiosyncratic rather than systematic in how I've been reading/learning about CR.

I truly apologize for making you rehash something you (and many others) have covered in a forum that I hadn't visited yet. I like reading your posts, which is why your blog is my go-to for CR info.